Key Clashes

[lotek888]

For all you DJs out there, I have a question. For those of you who like to play whatever moves you for your set (no or very few planned mixes) planned, is it then expected that you will have some key clashes in your mixes? Because there often isn't time to figure out the keys clash, and then cue up s new record (and if you do, that new one might have a key clash).

Just wondering what the feelings is on this particular aspect of DJing.

[alphagroove]

Im like you, as in I dont ever have stuff preplanned and its all spur of the moment choices.

I dont have my music key'd at all

but, generally i accept that fact that there will be some key clashes.. but for the most part, the real big clashes Im able to avoid when Im cueing up the next song and listening to them together for 15-30 seconds. Perhaps my music training growin up helped.

I honestly dont believe many people (ie crowds) have any musical idea about keys and how they sound, or shouldnt sound.. they tend to know a beat, but even still dont recognize many trainwrecks.
(but yes, mixing in key sure does sounds pretty)

[crono_]

Keying your tracks has nothing to do with pre-planning a set. You're still playing a set as you normally would, you're just more aware of which tracks would be compatible with others as opposed to just grabbing them at random.

All of my tracks are 100% keyed and my sets are 100% unplanned.

Key clashes are my absolute biggest pet peeve. They sound like complete ass. Producers compose their music in key so we as DJ's should play them in key. I'll take mixing in key over beat matching any day, that said, as stated in the recent debate about beatmatching I feel that DJ's should not sacrifice this portion of DJ'ing in any way!

[ThaRegger]

Question: How does one key his tracks?

[loprogression]

Keying your tracks has nothing to do with pre-planning a set. You're still playing a set as you normally would, you're just more aware of which tracks would be compatible with others as opposed to just grabbing them at random.

All of my tracks are 100% keyed and my sets are 100% unplanned.

Key clashes are my absolute biggest pet peeve. They sound like complete ass. Producers compose their music in key so we as DJ's should play them in key. I'll take mixing in key over beat matching any day, that said, as stated in the recent debate about beatmatching I feel that DJ's should not sacrifice this portion of DJ'ing in any way!

If you are beatmatching and keying your tracks how the hell will you have any time left to pose for photographs and shake peoples hands? Seems like you're loading too much on your plate. :p

[crono_]

If you are beatmatching and keying your tracks how the hell will you have any time left to pose for photographs and shake peoples hands? Seems like you're loading too much on your plate. :p

I'm a DJ, not a male model.

[crono_]

Question: How does one key his tracks?

Easiest way is to get a piano or keyboard and play your track at it's original pitch (so 0% in other words). Find the route note of the track (usually the bassline) and that will generally be the key. It can take a long time, especially if you have a lot of tracks but the outcome is more then worth it! There is software that you can use that'll key tracks for you but I find they're unreliable. Nothing beats using your ear!!!

Now then you've got 24 keys to choose from. 12 major and 12 minor. Only 6 keys will be compatible with any given key, once you determine what key your track is in you can then research and find which keys are compatible with it. The best example would be using a song that's in the exact same key, that will give you an ultra smooth mix.

The key of G Minor for instance will mix perfectly with another track in G Minor, but it's also harmonically compatible with tracks in D Minor and C Minor. You could also jump to B Flat Major if you wanted.

That being said though, you have to take BPM's into consideration. When you beatmatch you adjust a tracks BPM (well...you're supposed to that is!), and you do this by adjusting the pitch slider...BUT...when you adjust the pitch of a track you are changing it's note thus changing it's key. If you adjust a track +/-6% then the note will jump either up or down 1 whole note. So for instance if you have a track in the key of C it will then jump up 1 note to C Sharp (or D Flat...same thing). Vice versa...if you move it down 6% it will go from C down 1 note to B (or C Flat...again, same thing). If you only adjust the track by 3% then the note will be somewhere in the middle...not really one or the other, it should technically work with both notes but will sound messy. The cleanest mixes will be with the tracks that are as close to their original pitch as possible or +/- 6%.

Make sense?

[lotek888]

If you are beatmatching and keying your tracks how the hell will you have any time left to pose for photographs and shake peoples hands? Seems like you're loading too much on your plate. :p

Hahaha!

[p_aul]

i usually have a general idea which tracks should work with others, but if its spur of the moment and i just want to hear a certain track at a certain time and the keys do happen to be off, i'll either wait until the tune dies down a bit or play with the mids and work it in somewhere...

[Berbs]

I've had a few tracks key clash in sets I've recorded or on my radio show or when playing out, I always know its happening, I hear it, yet sometimes I think awe fuck it and do it anyway when I feel its not that bad or noticeable but mainly its something to be avoided, as are a few other things like playing vocals over top of each other and that sometimes happens too, yet with more melodic tracks, stuff with loads of heavy strings melodies or piano in the beginning or end of a track I'm way more careful with what I put with it.

[ThaRegger]

Has anybody here used mixed in key software?

[crono_]

Has anybody here used mixed in key software?

Yes, though I don't find it as reliable as a human ear. It's keyed tracks incorrectly too many times for me to fully trust it.

[Cardinality]

Keying your tracks has nothing to do with pre-planning a set. You're still playing a set as you normally would, you're just more aware of which tracks would be compatible with others as opposed to just grabbing them at random.

All of my tracks are 100% keyed and my sets are 100% unplanned.

Key clashes are my absolute biggest pet peeve. They sound like complete ass. Producers compose their music in key so we as DJ's should play them in key. I'll take mixing in key over beat matching any day, that said, as stated in the recent debate about beatmatching I feel that DJ's should not sacrifice this portion of DJ'ing in any way!

Agree 100%.

The key of a song is the very first thing I consider when choosing the next song to play (i.e. if an otherwise good choice for a next song would produce a key clash, I rule it out immediately). As Crono said, what sounds best is usually songs in the same key, or up/down a perfect 4th or 5th. About 95% of tracks are minor, so you don't have to worry too much about major keys.

I have perfect pitch, so I'm lucky enough to be able to hear the key of a song in my head before I choose it. I don't know how to go about explaining a method for quickly determining if two songs will sound good or will clash, unless you know what key they are all in beforehand. Unfortunately, most programs aren't always able to guess the key of a song correctly. For example, I'm pretty sure Mixmeister labels the key of a song by which bass tone occurs the longest during the song. This yields the correct key about 80% of the time.

But yeah, for me, the key of a song is of fundamental importance for song selection, and I always enjoy sets more when it's clear that the DJ is aware of the harmonics in his/her selections. To once again quote Crono, if a producer avoids it in an individual song, a DJ should avoid it in transitioning songs.

EDIT: if you want a really good example from a musician's perspective, listen to Tiesto's In Search Of Sunrise 6. The tracks are some of the finest new Progressive Trance selections available for an emotionally driven CD, but the frequent key clashes are horrific!

[p_aul]

i pick my tracks based on the overall feel i get from that tune, regardless of what key its in. let me worry about sneaking it in. and if it sounds like crap, then don't get your picture taken with me.

[crono_]

i pick my tracks based on the overall feel i get from that tune, regardless of what key its in. let me worry about sneaking it in. and if it sounds like crap, then don't get your picture taken with me.

If it sounds like crap then no one would want their picture with you anyways. :p

[Doran]

i pick my tracks based on the overall feel i get from that tune, regardless of what key its in. let me worry about sneaking it in. and if it sounds like crap, then don't get your picture taken with me.

awesome! x2

[p_aul]

crono_, you want your picture taken with me when YOU are spinning. THATS how good i am!

[crono_]

crono_, you want your picture taken with me when YOU are spinning. THATS how good i am!

It's true, you're my own personal Tiesto. :p

[Sirius Black]

i usually have a general idea which tracks should work with others, but if its spur of the moment and i just want to hear a certain track at a certain time and the keys do happen to be off, i'll either wait until the tune dies down a bit or play with the mids and work it in somewhere...

Yea thats what i do, with some level and eq play you can avoid some what would otherwise be major key clashes.

[Sirius Black]

i pick my tracks based on the overall feel i get from that tune, regardless of what key its in. let me worry about sneaking it in. and if it sounds like crap, then don't get your picture taken with me.

reinforcement of this statement. if a dj is good the feel he gets from one track to the next will mostly take care of preventing key clashes because he will select tracks that go well together.

[p_aul]

reinforcement of this statement. if a dj is good the feel he gets from one track to the next will mostly take care of preventing key clashes because he will select tracks that go well together.

i never really thought about it in terms of which key tracks are in, i would like to think i have a pretty good idea what tracks will sound good together without using software or sitting there with a piano figuring out what key the tune is in. and if the tunes start to clash, there are still a number of ways to make the tracks work.

[Sirius Black]

i never really thought about it in terms of which key tracks are in, i would like to think i have a pretty good idea what tracks will sound good together without using software or sitting there with a piano figuring out what key the tune is in. and if the tunes start to clash, there are still a number of ways to make the tracks work.

Precicely. I've actually had songs that i felt worked after the other, but would normally clash, but if mixed properly, and eq'd properly, clashes can be minimized and in some cases they end up sounding really good together. I did a lot of that in Midnight Soul cause there was a lot of songs i felt carried the mood, but keys clashed, and i feel i did a pretty good job of making sure it all fit together.

edit : Although what i will say, i spend a lot of time with traktor practicing mixes and seeing what songs sound good together, so when i go out and play, i have a good idea of what songs create what mood.

[p_aul]

Precicely. I've actually had songs that i felt worked after the other, but would normally clash, but if mixed properly, and eq'd properly, clashes can be minimized and in some cases they end up sounding really good together. I did a lot of that in Midnight Soul cause there was a lot of songs i felt carried the mood, but keys clashed, and i feel i did a pretty good job of making sure it all fit together.

edit : Although what i will say, i spend a lot of time with traktor practicing mixes and seeing what songs sound good together, so when i go out and play, i have a good idea of what songs create what mood.

yup yup. it helps to learn what will go good together because you have done the mix beforehand. Proper equing definately helps tracks not to clash, or say cutting in and out around a clash, like a call and answer type thing.

a few people here seem set in thier ways when it comes to mixing in key, but i think that is due to inexperience for the most part. i can understand for big hands in the air panty trance where you are pounding out 3-4 minute mixes that you will definately want to be in a similar key, but i hardly play trance like that anymore. when i did, half my records had 2-3 other track names written on them that went well together..

there are so many different types of mixing you can do that it shouldnt matter which key the track is in. look at dj's like z-trip or mixmaster mike, granted they don't play trance, but i would be suprised if they were unable to mix ANY two tracks together, just because of the many dj tricks they have up thier sleeves. this goes back to a previous post where someone mentioned that a good dj can mix anything, which i think is bang on.

[loprogression]

Exactly. Even in fullon psytrance where you have a 15 to 20 second buffer period to mix from one track to the next, often with melodies still going in some capacity, there are still ways to make it sound decent. EQing is your friend.

I've explored the whole mixing in key business, and what limitations are now in the way where I can't play certain tracks with other tracks, seems like more of a negative than mixing tracks not in the same key. I'm certainly not tone deaf, and can tell when something is not in key, and I use EQing and my ears to compensate.

Also, as mentioned earlier, once you start messing with the pitch to beatmatch, certain songs that were once in the same key (when their pitch was at 0%) are either no longer in the same key, or are slightly off key... which could sound even worse... not to mention completely defeating the purpose of avoiding key clashes.

[p_aul]

very true lopro, except when people standardize all thier tracks. It shouldn't matter because all the tracks will be played at the same speed and the keys will all be relative to eachother. i dont know for sure, but this makes sense in my head anyway. i guess the real dj trick would be to standardize your track before you key it... unless you can adjust the bpm without changing the pitch. who knows, who cares.

[loprogression]

unless you can adjust the bpm without changing the pitch.

Ya, you can, but it sounds like ass.

When you slow it down, it duplicates tiny little samples of the audio to give more length to a sound, thus slowing it down. When you speed it up it removes tiny samples. This may not be too apparent to some people, but I know I'm not the only one who can hear those changes even when someone is using Master Tempo on the cd decks. Though its not really a huge deal, if a tiny sample happens to get cut right at the exact point a Kick drum hits, it basically deletes the punch of a kick, and you get this muddy washed out kick sound. Also, on pad sounds in a breakdown it becomes very obvious.

[bootygrl]

There are no rules in any mystical DJ Bible that state thou must mix in key. It's more of a personal preference for some. Everyone has their style of mixing whether it's in key or not. If you can make tracks that are in off keys work then go for it. I've got a few tracks that work very well together despite being in "incompatible" key's.

Do what you do as long as you don't make ears bleed! :p

[Sirius Black]

Do what you do as long as you don't make ears bleed! :p

unless you play hard techno like myself, then ear bleeding is the goal

[crono_]

There are no rules in any mystical DJ Bible that state thou must mix in key. It's more of a personal preference for some. Everyone has their style of mixing whether it's in key or not. If you can make tracks that are in off keys work then go for it. I've got a few tracks that work very well together despite being in "incompatible" key's.

Do what you do as long as you don't make ears bleed! :p

Err....sorry, this was posted by me...not Bootygrl.

:p

[byte]

Has anybody here used mixed in key software?
Yes, though I don't find it as reliable as a human ear. It's keyed tracks incorrectly too many times for me to fully trust it.

Agree. I tried Mixed In Key and it's only accurate on something like 40-60% of tracks. A better program is Rapid Evolution, plus it's free! Much more accurate, but still not perfect (maybe 80-90% ish?).

[Khemlab]

Hrm.. I haven't noticed any issues yet with Mixed in Key, I do however only use it as a guideline...

Are we remembering that if the bpm is more then 6% difference on the pitch fader that the key will actually be very, very different? :P

[loprogression]

I dunno, i've found that even off by 2% there is in enough pitch change that it will be slightly offkey.

[p_aul]

thats why you have to standardize your tracks so they are all the same tempo so you dont have to worry about key clashes when you "dj".

:bash:

[loprogression]

Good call.

Don't forget to shake hands and get your picture taken while you are at it.

[crono_]

I dunno, i've found that even off by 2% there is in enough pitch change that it will be slightly offkey.

Word.

...did I just say that? egh...

[JFries]

Easiest way is to get a piano or keyboard and play your track at it's original pitch (so 0% in other words). Find the route note of the track (usually the bassline) and that will generally be the key. It can take a long time, especially if you have a lot of tracks but the outcome is more then worth it! There is software that you can use that'll key tracks for you but I find they're unreliable. Nothing beats using your ear!!!

Now then you've got 24 keys to choose from. 12 major and 12 minor. Only 6 keys will be compatible with any given key, once you determine what key your track is in you can then research and find which keys are compatible with it. The best example would be using a song that's in the exact same key, that will give you an ultra smooth mix.

The key of G Minor for instance will mix perfectly with another track in G Minor, but it's also harmonically compatible with tracks in D Minor and C Minor. You could also jump to B Flat Major if you wanted.

That being said though, you have to take BPM's into consideration. When you beatmatch you adjust a tracks BPM (well...you're supposed to that is!), and you do this by adjusting the pitch slider...BUT...when you adjust the pitch of a track you are changing it's note thus changing it's key. If you adjust a track +/-6% then the note will jump either up or down 1 whole note. So for instance if you have a track in the key of C it will then jump up 1 note to C Sharp (or D Flat...same thing). Vice versa...if you move it down 6% it will go from C down 1 note to B (or C Flat...again, same thing). If you only adjust the track by 3% then the note will be somewhere in the middle...not really one or the other, it should technically work with both notes but will sound messy. The cleanest mixes will be with the tracks that are as close to their original pitch as possible or +/- 6%.

Make sense?

actually crono, the easiest way to key your vinyl is to have yourself a vinyl to mp3 recorder that you can pick up at and circuit city or the source, copy your vinyl to your computer, from there you buy the program mixed in key http://www.mixedinkey.com/ and run all your recorded vinyl thro that program, it finds the key and the bpm right down to a hundreth of a second, (eg: 152.16) from there you just can put a sticker on your vinyls cases with the key and bpm, much much easier then crono's way, and alot more fool proof, welcome to harmonic mixing kids

[JFries]

Hrm.. I haven't noticed any issues yet with Mixed in Key, I do however only use it as a guideline...

Are we remembering that if the bpm is more then 6% difference on the pitch fader that the key will actually be very, very different? :P


and after i posted that i saw someone already mentioned mixed in key

[crono_]

actually crono, the easiest way to key your vinyl is to have yourself a vinyl to mp3 recorder that you can pick up at and circuit city or the source, copy your vinyl to your computer, from there you buy the program mixed in key http://www.mixedinkey.com/ and run all your recorded vinyl thro that program, it finds the key and the bpm right down to a hundreth of a second, (eg: 152.16) from there you just can put a sticker on your vinyls cases with the key and bpm, much much easier then crono's way, and alot more fool proof, welcome to harmonic mixing kids

kids? lol

[JFries]

kids? lol

not you directly, it was meant for the ones who will learn from our input on harmonic mixing ;) :DJsmile:

[p_aul]

not you directly, it was meant for the ones who will learn from our input on harmonic mixing ;) :DJsmile:

you dont really need a vinyl to mp3 recorder, any cooledit/soundforge type program is all you really need.

[Owen]

you dont really need a vinyl to mp3 recorder, any cooledit/soundforge type program is all you really need.

to each their own but i ican tell you got a big bang out of sitting down with my guitar and working my way through 96 songs that i wanted to mix over the past few weeks... I hate to sound like a spirit of 1969 type hippy but i felt more 'in tune' with the music. Also if the key guessing software is right 80-90% of the time, i'm thinking i'm batting higher than that, for most of the almost hundred songs I went through nailing the root key was easy, like Cardinality mentioned most electronic music tunes are in minor keys, so if you can play barre chords on guitar, your set. Thing is i'm not producing any music i kind of feel I owe it to the artists who came up with the tunes to dig a lil deeper into their music, it's the same way I appreciate punk/metal tunes more when i know how to play em on guitar. The more you know the better, i'm just fortunate enough to have learned guitar years before I ever pushed the play button on my rental CDJzzzzz. THAT being said! my non scale/chromatic hip DJ friend came over the other day and was able to mix by ear with the QUICKNESS!! She ended up mixing from root key to perfect 4 or 5th or hitting the same root minor again, nice.. Some people have the natural gift..

[Owen]

Wanted to re-visit this one ONCE more. How are you cats that are mixing things harmonically doing it? Online keyboard, regular keyboard, guitar? Software?

...My update is that after 6 months of finding root keys and notes using my guitar i've found that I'm able to do a much better job of picking out songs that work key wise just by using my ears on the fly and not referring to anything I'd written down previously. I'm assuming that during the process of keying almost 250 songs manually my ears smartened up and now are able to hear what is right and what is not.

[lotek888]

Wanted to re-visit this one ONCE more. How are you cats that are mixing things harmonically doing it? Online keyboard, regular keyboard, guitar? Software?

...My update is that after 6 months of finding root keys and notes using my guitar i've found that I'm able to do a much better job of picking out songs that work key wise just by using my ears on the fly and not referring to anything I'd written down previously. I'm assuming that during the process of keying almost 250 songs manually my ears smartened up and now are able to hear what is right and what is not.

No shit, that is exactly what I do, use my ears. It worked for me before, and I thought something like Mixed in Key would hep me find harmonically compatible tracks quicker, but it just doesn't for me. I just try to mix different tracks together endlessly until I find one that's harmonically compatible. I can't say if it's in the same key or one of the couple harmonic keys, but I know fore sure if it's harmonically compatible or not.

I don't know though. I've had a small amount of music training when younger, so I guess for someone who knows nothing about the stuff, a program like that would be of benefit. But it hasn't saved me much time, and my mixes were mostly harmonic without it.

[HI Octane]

i follow the simple rule of thumb as explained near the end of this video:

PbI3G2fG92w

of course it doesn't work all the time but in that case i either find another track to mix to or just make it work by working the eqs, effects, and doing a couple quick cuts

however ive been thinking of trying out that 'mixed in key' software... might become useful once i start moving from cd to digital

[p_aul]

No shit, that is exactly what I do, use my ears. It worked for me before, and I thought something like Mixed in Key would hep me find harmonically compatible tracks quicker, but it just doesn't for me. I just try to mix different tracks together endlessly until I find one that's harmonically compatible. I can't say if it's in the same key or one of the couple harmonic keys, but I know fore sure if it's harmonically compatible or not.

I don't know though. I've had a small amount of music training when younger, so I guess for someone who knows nothing about the stuff, a program like that would be of benefit. But it hasn't saved me much time, and my mixes were mostly harmonic without it.

i use my ears too. i listen to the tune that is playing, and then go through my list of tunes that i want to play next and play the tune in my head or even listen to a small sample. i can get a pretty good idea if the songs will clash or not just by knowing what they sound like. this isnt something that i just picked up overnight tho, so i can see how the newer guys would want to have their tracks keyed so they have more time to sign autographs and have their pictures taken ;).

What also works is when i am learning new tracks jamming at home and i find two that work well together, i make a mental note. Or i try to remember where the melody kicks in so i can be ready on the eq's to dull the melody of the other track, or cut the other track out completly. there are many ways to mix tracks together, be creative and expirement with different ways of doing things.

i didnt get through that video video hi octane, he lost me when he said that 33 rpms means that the platter turns 33 times in one minute. :P no shit.

[Owen]

No shit, that is exactly what I do, use my ears. It worked for me before, and I thought something like Mixed in Key would hep me find harmonically compatible tracks quicker, but it just doesn't for me. I just try to mix different tracks together endlessly until I find one that's harmonically compatible. I can't say if it's in the same key or one of the couple harmonic keys, but I know fore sure if it's harmonically compatible or not.

I don't know though. I've had a small amount of music training when younger, so I guess for someone who knows nothing about the stuff, a program like that would be of benefit. But it hasn't saved me much time, and my mixes were mostly harmonic without it.

it's not too difficult if you have a basic musical knowledge and good ears. Jon (Chrono) showed me a neat online keyboard last year that worked well for nailing those root notes. At some point i'll probably stop key'ing the songs completely and just do everything by ear like all the big dogs do. I also manually tap out the BPM using an online BPM ticker.. once I switch to Traktor Scratch later this year and I start properly grid'ing all the tunes in my collection i'll drop that practice too.

[kayo]

I go with the flow...Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes it sounds like cat screams. If I preview the next track I can figure out whether to bring that shit in, or wait for the bassline to drop on the track playing.

[Owen]

i'm gonna post a video on youtube with the process that I use to key stuff. Should be informative as a crash course in music theory/scales for those with a bit of previous knowledge. I'll try and get 'er done over my remaining vacation

[LSDave]

it's not too difficult if you have a basic musical knowledge and good ears. Jon (Chrono) showed me a neat online keyboard last year that worked well for nailing those root notes. At some point i'll probably stop key'ing the songs completely and just do everything by ear like all the big dogs do. I also manually tap out the BPM using an online BPM ticker.. once I switch to Traktor Scratch later this year and I start properly grid'ing all the tunes in my collection i'll drop that practice too.

gridding tunes is a time consuming mess. getting through my massive back catalogue has eaten up many many nights. and i've barely made a dent. Not sure if i would even have bought traktor scratch if i knew the program as well as i do now then. Just get traktor pro, and a traktor certified mixer like the mackie d2pro or d4pro. MUCH easier to set up.

[Owen]

gridding tunes is a time consuming mess. getting through my massive back catalogue has eaten up many many nights. and i've barely made a dent. Not sure if i would even have bought traktor scratch if i knew the program as well as i do now then. Just get traktor pro, and a traktor certified mixer like the mackie d2pro or d4pro. MUCH easier to set up.

ooops i meant traktor pro yeah...
I can see how it would take time based on the size of each person's song collection. I have about 300 trax.. not sure if that's a lot or a little? i'm thinking it's small in comparison to most DJz on here. My plan is to grid them while on my front or back porch enjoying the sun while drinking hooch and texting teh ladies.

[Grudge]

Im currently sitting around 5700 tracks on my computer. I throw my new music I buy into selected folders and scan it with MixedInKey to sort my tracks and write the BPM and key into the track comment. Makes it alot easier when sorting out music onto CDs such as arranging all the downtempo, midtempo, dubstep etc etc and making CDs of all 1 key of music. One of the best pieces of software I ever bought.

[Owen]

One more bump to bring 'er back from the dead.

Here is a very good reason NOT to use software to guess the key of a tune..

http://www.djtechtools.com/2009/11/02/key-analysis-software-smackdown/

Grudge as of the date of yo post over the summer , you had almost 6K worth of tracks. For that reason using software might be an advantage , however if you've got less trax and mo time. Use a guitar/keyboard to key those mothers. I did that for the first 4 months I was learning to DJ, afterwords I found I didn't need to key anything as my ears would do it for me live. For pre-recorded sets I'll still sit down and check the root, perfect 4th, and 5ths of the songs to make sure they go with the next song.