laptop soundcard [Archive]

Sirius Black

01-11-2010, 07:23 AM

A few things :

Don't get serato, it's buggy, the records drift, and the D/A converters in the soundcard are POS. You don't really notice the quality of the converters on a live system, but at home it really sucks.

For a PC computer : Invest in a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB. Focusrite's preamps and converters are world famous! Definitely some of the best sound in the biz.

For a Mac computer : Get a MOTU soundcard, probably the Ultralite MK3. I would recommend them for a pc as well, except their driver support is shoddy at best for Windows based systems.

Although that said, you can't have a good sound card without good speakers to go with it. 3 months ago, I would have strongly recommended you get Yamaha HS80's for monitoring, because they are amazing for the price. Nowadays...I may have to lean away from them because there is a lot of the audio spectrum that they do not represent. Details you can hear on other monitors that you cannot on these. Although they sound like gold. For that reason I'd probably recommend Mackie, or if you are rich, Genelec.

LSDave

01-11-2010, 09:09 AM

serato is by no means buggy. its the most solid dj software out there. but yes. as don said, its sound quality isnt the greatest.

brian oblivion

01-11-2010, 03:02 PM

Ive read that its pretty solid too. Have you used the SL-3? Seems better then the SL-1 to me.

What do you guys use? Traktor? How is it?

don - got the speakers taken care, running tannoy and good bang for buck

LSDave

01-11-2010, 04:07 PM

if you are looking for mixing 2 channels only. Traktor Scratch DUO is only $450 the audio 4 dj interface blows away the SL1 and it can be used as a sound card for PC and macs. where the SL1 can only be used as a standalone card for PC's.

i know quite a few people who have had both traktor and serato and everyone says how much more they like traktor.

brian oblivion

01-11-2010, 05:32 PM

Ive been reading up about traktor now for an hour or so now and i would def lean towards the pro since it has quantize mode and the ability to record the output. I also like that i could sync deck 3 and 4 to the timecode for added creativity, which is especially nice for techno

I also read that the duo has timecode issues, but dont know if i misread or not

Dave - Im assuming you have used both, what is your opinion on both? I started with vinyl and am looking for something as close as possible to that vinyl feel.

On another note, the cdj900 looks sick!!! Decisions decisions

Sirius Black

01-12-2010, 07:09 AM

I have sworn by traktor since traktor 2... I have tried to get Serato to not be shitty, and so far it always fails...

Most notoriously the drifting issue...

Traktor Scratch sound card is good, but I wouldn't use it for production. I want to wait and see the CDJ 900 and 2000's in action before I pass judgment. I hope it is as durable as it's predecessors.

kayo

01-12-2010, 03:16 PM

Here's the thing about Traktor and Serato:

Traktor - Can do more technical things if you're into showmanship.

Serato - Just plays music.

It's all in how you wanna DJ. I personally am not interested in blowing people's minds when I spin. I love the songs I play to much to mess with them and just let everyone appreciate what the Artists have created. So I got myself Serato.

But after research, Traktor is crazy, MIND BLASTING stuff.

Check out this deadly mother fucker:
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Oh and Serato SL1 is $799 and add $100 for each new SL...

brian oblivion

01-12-2010, 03:35 PM

i had made my mind up already, but after seeing those clips i am confident i made the right choice....traktor!!

now i just gotta decide mac or pc

Owen

01-12-2010, 04:21 PM

i had made my mind up already, but after seeing those clips i am confident i made the right choice....traktor!!

now i just gotta decide mac or pc

Good choice on the Traktor.

PC v Mac there is already a thread for dat :)

http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=4269

oxide

01-12-2010, 06:07 PM

for external sound cards M-audio is always a good place to start reading up.

Sirius Black

01-14-2010, 11:00 AM

for external sound cards M-audio is always a good place to start reading up.

You just lost all your credibility with this statement.

Sirius Black

01-14-2010, 11:01 AM

i had made my mind up already, but after seeing those clips i am confident i made the right choice....traktor!!

now i just gotta decide mac or pc

Having been both a Mac and PC user, I can say, if you want a computer that just works with minimal effort, get a Mac, but be prepared to pay a premium. Since most Mac's now use the same architecture, chipsets, and controllers as PC's, the only real difference now is the operating system and build quality.

brian oblivion

01-14-2010, 06:06 PM

ive been to a couple chain shops and checked out whats out there for PCs. But after stopping by L&M and looking at all the gear they have, I have decided to get a mac since I want to stick with Logic...been using Logic 5 for years and feel its time to upgrade.

I think Ill be going with a Macbook Pro with 4Gb Ram and 'upgrade' to 320Gb HD (i know its not 7200 rpm but that is only available with the 15", i think) and feel this should be sufficient to run logic studio 9 and traktor. What you think Don?

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 07:20 AM

loprogression

01-15-2010, 11:29 AM

Ya, don't let L&M upgrade you or it'll be springtime by the time you get your shit. Super easy to do the RAM and HD yourself.

I agree with Don that running anything sample based in Logic should be done on an external drive. Let OS & App data read/write from the internal drive (where having a slower internal drive won't necessarily affect you), and have all sample based data read/write to the external drive. Technically the bus is slower via USB than a direct line to the internal drive, but it shouldn't be a problem.

For all my Dink Bridge tracks its heavily based on sample based synthesizers like Kontakt running East/Wests orchestral, string, and choir packs and Omnisphere, which often have a different sample clip for every intonation and velocity which equates to the hard drive loading a shit-tonne of samples to and from the memory. I don't like bouncing anything if I don't have to so its not uncommon for me to have 10 instances of Kontakt, Omnisphere, or Nexus running at the same time. All this is done off a USB external drive with 4 GB of RAM and I don't run in to problems. So you'll be just fine.

Having been both a Mac and PC user, I can say, if you want a computer that just works with minimal effort, get a Mac, but be prepared to pay a premium. Since most Mac's now use the same architecture, chipsets, and controllers as PC's, the only real difference now is the operating system and build quality.

He's already mentioned going with a Mac, but for anyone else looking to do music production, going with a PC is a poor move imo. Yes I'm a mac fanboy. But in the face of Win 7 being a super solid OS, getting good PC hardware running Win7 is not a bad option. Inferior to a Mac :p, but not necessarily bad.

But when it comes to music production Logic is way better than Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio and Reason (obviously). Its Mac only software so you have no choice. But more importantly, you are running DAW software built by the same people that build the operating system and machines. I never experience crashes in Logic that aren't related to 3rd party synths. Ever.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 11:50 AM

He's already mentioned going with a Mac, but for anyone else looking to do music production, going with a PC is a poor move imo. Yes I'm a mac fanboy. But in the face of Win 7 being a super solid OS, getting good PC hardware running Win7 is not a bad option. Inferior to a Mac :p, but not necessarily bad.

But when it comes to music production Logic is way better than Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio and Reason (obviously). Its Mac only software so you have no choice. But more importantly, you are running DAW software built by the same people that build the operating system and machines. I never experience crashes in Logic that aren't related to 3rd party synths. Ever.

Here are my problems with these statements :

1. Windows 7 is rock solid with Cubase 5. I've never had it crash. EVER. And the operating system is just as transparent at this stage in the game. I think officially, the Mac OS > Windows argument can finally be retired.

2. What I was trying to illustrate with the quoted statement, is that the only difference now between mac and pc is the operating system. All the hardware is virtually the same.

3. Logic is not written by the people who write the operating system. They are employed by the same company, but aren't the same people. Most of them probably don't even speak the same language. As you may remember, Logic was a program originally developed by a german company called emagic, which was later bought by Apple. These people still do development for Apple, so while the program is exclusive to the Mac OS platform, it is not as streamlined as you would like to think it is.

4. When I was running Logic, I had it crash at least 5 times per song I wrote on average. Since running Cubase 5 on Windows 7, I think 3 crashes total. I prefer Logic as it has a much more streamlined interface, nicer looking gui, and 100000x more functionality, however it does not have the rock solid stability over pc that you claim it to have.

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 12:19 PM

I'm tempted just to pick up an Audio 2 DJ interface for DJ use.

It's super small, usb power, and lower cost then most others.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 12:22 PM

loprogression

01-15-2010, 12:25 PM

1. Windows 7 is rock solid with Cubase 5. I've never had it crash. EVER. And the operating system is just as transparent at this stage in the game. I think officially, the Mac OS > Windows argument can finally be retired.

Since when did u jump the fence on that? Granted, I haven't used Windows 7 enough to comment yet. So I can't really give a decent side by side comparison but I'm skeptical that M$ has their shit together enough to build an OS as good as OSX10.6. I'm gonna be switching to Windows 7 at work in a few weeks so I'll be able to form an opinion soon enough. XP and Vista are total shite compared to OSX, so if win7 is as great as you say it is.. awesome! Makes my day job easier lol.

3. Logic is not written by the people who write the operating system. They are employed by the same company, but aren't the same people. Most of them probably don't even speak the same language. As you may remember, Logic was a program originally developed by a german company called emagic, which was later bought by Apple. These people still do development for Apple, so while the program is exclusive to the Mac OS platform, it is not as streamlined as you would like to think it is.

There are a lot of inner workings of the OS that Apple could share between departments, that they won't share with Steinberg. As I'm sure you are aware OS's are pretty complex and there are workarounds and shortcuts that would be in the best corporate interest of Apple to share with their Logic developers and not with Steinberg.

4. When I was running Logic, I had it crash at least 5 times per song I wrote on average. Since running Cubase 5 on Windows 7, I think 3 crashes total. I prefer Logic as it has a much more streamlined interface, nicer looking gui, and 100000x more functionality, however it does not have the rock solid stability over pc that you claim it to have.

:pfffff: Logic never crashes on me. I have problems with Absynth that crash the system, and I have problems with my shitty soundcard. But neither of those are related to Logic itself. I don't worry about cpu and ram and never bounce channels and I use all sorts of 3rd party crap, so I have no idea why you'd be having all these problems.

To be honest, since I don't run Win7 or Cubase 5 it could very well be on par with Logic, stability wise. My latest real experience with DAWs on a PC was over 2.5 years ago running XP SP3 and Cubase SX2.

Still though, at the end of it all, I never have hardware, software, or OS problems... ever. And I had nothing but problems on all the PCs I used for music.

Owen

01-15-2010, 12:37 PM

I'm tempted just to pick up an Audio 2 DJ interface for DJ use.

It's super small, usb power, and lower cost then most others.

Audio 2 doesn't have enough for a 2 track dj interface. Keep in mind the number here is 2 channels total, 1 left, 1 right. You would need audio 4 dj to be usable for a dj setup.

Actually it does, it has two OUTPUTS, it has 4 channels (2 left, 2 right)

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=915

It's main limitation is that it doesn't support using time-code vinyl or CD , but could be used for internal mixing with Traktor LE with two tracks mixed internally.

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=a2djoverview

So it could work well if you've got most of your collection gridded.

The functionally is not that different from the Audio 4 DJ.

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=929

In fact i might consider buying this as i've got the vast majority of my tunes gridded and it would allow me to leave my Ecler at home.

Owen

01-15-2010, 12:38 PM

Actually it does, it has two OUTPUTS, it has 4 channels (2 left, 2 right)

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=915

It's main limitation is that it doesn't support using time-code vinyl or CD , but could be used for internal mixing with Traktor LE with two tracks mixed internally.

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=a2djoverview

So it could work well if you've got most of your collection gridded.

The functionally is not that different from the Audio 4 DJ.

http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/products/dj/audio-2-dj/?page=929

In fact i might consider buying this as i've got the vast majority of my tunes gridded and it would allow me to leave my Ecler at home.

Randal do you want to go halfers on a unit? We could share it for gigs @ republic/academy etc.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 12:42 PM

Since when did u jump the fence on that? Granted, I haven't used Windows 7 enough to comment yet. So I can't really give a decent side by side comparison but I'm skeptical that M$ has their shit together enough to build an OS as good as OSX10.6.

I haven't really jumped fence per se. I'm just saying that the advantage that Mac's had is dwindling. The price is still high, architecture and chipsets are the same on most common pc laptops/prefabs, they aren't competitive in the price vs performance aspect (not that they ever have been) and Windows 7 is a miracle of an operating system. I've been using Cubase 5 on Windows 7 since the first beta of Windows 7 and not a single crash. That and if you buy the right Laptop, you can just install Mac OS stable with all the drivers anyway.

There are a lot of inner workings of the OS that Apple could share between departments, that they won't share with Steinberg. As I'm sure you are aware OS's are pretty complex and there are workarounds and shortcuts that would be in the best corporate interest of Apple to share with their Logic developers and not with Steinberg.

I do not agree with the validity of this statement. Companies release SDK's to software manufacturers so that they can make programs for their operating systems. Often times there is no difference in the SDK from the person making in house programs, compared to 3rd party. The only real difference is that internal software gets more development time. If there were "internal secrets" for coding for the operating systems, why would companies run extensive beta testing? Surely if they had insider information they wouldn't need to?

:pfffff: Logic never crashes on me. I have problems with Absynth that crash the system, and I have problems with my shitty soundcard. But neither of those are related to Logic itself. I don't worry about cpu and ram and never bounce channels and I use all sorts of 3rd party crap, so I have no idea why you'd be having all these problems.

This varies from system to system. Just because you've never had a problem does not mean this is canon for the experience of a product. You know very well that there is no consistency between products manufactured to be sold in a retail environment. This is why stores have customer service departments.

Still though, at the end of it all, I never have hardware, software, or OS problems... ever. And I had nothing but problems on all the PCs I used for music.

I saw the PC you used to make music on, I know why you had problems :P

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 12:44 PM

In fact i might consider buying this as i've got the vast majority of my tunes gridded and it would allow me to leave my Ecler at home.

I guess you would use a midi controller then?

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 12:49 PM

Audio 2 doesn't have enough for a 2 track dj interface. Keep in mind the number here is 2 channels total, 1 left, 1 right. You would need audio 4 dj to be usable for a dj setup.

huh? It has 2 channels. Its Channel A and Channel B both are stereo.

Owen

01-15-2010, 12:50 PM

I guess you would use a midi controller then?

I'm considering one of those as well. The small Korg unit Shawn uses is a strong contender.

If me/randal were both using my laptop (like last saturday) with his tunes in one playlist, mine in another then there wouldn't be a need for any fancy MIDI stuff. I've got keyboard shortcuts setup for all the key traktor functions.

For the moment to transition from one DJ who's using regular CD's or Serato or what not, I setup the fader on my MIC channel of my ecler mixer with a MIDI mapping to control the pitch of the deck in focus in Traktor. I practiced with it this week , and it worked really well. Thus eliminating the need for time-code cdz :)

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 12:51 PM

I guess you would use a midi controller then?

Yes. or laptop keys.

beta

01-15-2010, 01:01 PM

Why is everyone bickering with the age old Mac vs. PC arguement?

It's all the same now, Mac switched to Intel. An operating system is only as fast as it's hardware.

Sure, before Mac was a fuckton better for digital signal processing because of the fused multiple-add the CPU had built into it's function set.

Current Mac/PC Intel X86 CPU STILL doesn't have that, by 2012 Intel is planning to add FMA to the 128bit SIMD instruction set.

As for graphics, it really depends on what GPU you have, some cards have FMA operations while others do not.

Sirius Black

I do not agree with the validity of this statement. Companies release SDK's to software manufacturers so that they can make programs for their operating systems. Often times there is no difference in the SDK from the person making in house programs, compared to 3rd party. The only real difference is that internal software gets more development time. If there were "internal secrets" for coding for the operating systems, why would companies run extensive beta testing? Surely if they had insider information they wouldn't need to?

Incorrect, SDK is platform dependent. You can't take it and develop the program for another operating system as well it's more or less "tools" to make the program, not the core code.
I guess you can compare it to the object oriented coding paradigm.

Of course there are "secrets" for operating system development. If you design an algorithm that can do something much faster then another OS, then keep it to yourself, let the others do the math to figure it out.

Mac OS which uses the XNU kernel was based off of Unix, and still has code from FreeBSD (XNU BSD and XNU MACH) uses POSIX API calls and if developers really wanted to they could port over Logic, or any other Mac app to run standalone without modification on Li/Unix and from there on it's possible to port to Windows.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 01:05 PM

I'm considering one of those as well. The small Korg unit Shawn uses is a strong contender.

If me/randal were both using my laptop (like last saturday) with his tunes in one playlist, mine in another then there wouldn't be a need for any fancy MIDI stuff. I've got keyboard shortcuts setup for all the key traktor functions.

For the moment to transition from one DJ who's using regular CD's or Serato or what not, I setup the fader on my MIC channel of my ecler mixer with a MIDI mapping to control the pitch of the deck in focus in Traktor. I practiced with it this week , and it worked really well. Thus eliminating the need for time-code cdz :)

I don't know that I could ever go down this road... not for reason's of morality, but because at this stage in my experience, I get frustrated if I don't have some sort of large platter to push or pull tracks, or something to swing a track in when I'm cueing. I know you could nudge with buttons, but it isn't the same. Just a personal preference though. For that reason i'll always use timecoded cd's or vinyl

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 01:28 PM

Incorrect, SDK is platform dependent. You can't take it and develop the program for another operating system as well it's more or less "tools" to make the program, not the core code.
I guess you can compare it to the object oriented coding paradigm.

Of course there are "secrets" for operating system development. If you design an algorithm that can do something much faster then another OS, then keep it to yourself, let the others do the math to figure it out.

Mac OS which uses the XNU kernel was based off of Unix, and still has code from FreeBSD (XNU BSD and XNU MACH) uses POSIX API calls and if developers really wanted to they could port over Logic, or any other Mac app to run standalone without modification on Li/Unix and from there on it's possible to port to Windows.

1. What I'm trying to say is that with SDK, let's say Microsoft doesn't have any greater advantage then Adobe for making programs for their own operating system, because it's not like the programmers sit side by side. I doubt the departments even talk to each other the way north american corporate entities communicate.

2. I'm talking about secrets in software development for a common platform, not about the platform development itself.

3. What you are saying in this paragraph validates my claim that there is nothing special (stability wise or other) about a program made by the company that owns the operating system it's being written for. And especially in the case of Mac OS because of it's generic core platform.

beta

01-15-2010, 01:37 PM

3. What you are saying in this paragraph validates my claim that there is nothing special (stability wise or other) about a program made by the company that owns the operating system it's being written for. And especially in the case of Mac OS because of it's generic core platform.

I agree with that previous previous post 100%, failed to mention it though.

At the end, it comes down to money. You keep software to one operating system it requires people to buy the OS and then the program.

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 01:38 PM

1. What I'm trying to say is that with SDK, let's say Microsoft doesn't have any greater advantage then Adobe for making programs for their own operating system, because it's not like the programmers sit side by side. I doubt the departments even talk to each other the way north american corporate entities communicate.

2. I'm talking about secrets in software development for a common platform, not about the platform development itself.

3. What you are saying in this paragraph validates my claim that there is nothing special (stability wise or other) about a program made by the company that owns the operating system it's being written for. And especially in the case of Mac OS because of it's generic core platform.

Don, I hear what you're saying, but your side is all heresay.

example:
Often times there is no difference in the SDK from the person making in house programs, compared to 3rd party. says who?
Which SDKs have you compared?

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 01:47 PM

Don, I hear what you're saying, but your side is all heresay.

example:
says who?
Which SDKs have you compared?

Since i'm not a programmer none. Although from a user standpoint, I have never really experience a vendor being more efficient and writing a code for a common platform than it's 3rd party affiliates. In some cases, the affiliates can do it better because they have more dedicated resources.

beta

01-15-2010, 02:04 PM

Since i'm not a programmer none. Although from a user standpoint, I have never really experience a vendor being more efficient and writing a code for a common platform than it's 3rd party affiliates. In some cases, the affiliates can do it better because they have more dedicated resources.

Sometimes, the vendor, or developer has functions that it doesn't release out for public use which have direct access to certain things. They may or may not release that to 3rd party developers.

Often times there is no difference in the SDK from the person making in house programs, compared to 3rd party.

Don is correct here, often times both sides will use it as a tool to develop so it's open to all users, using the same function set. Examples, Microsoft Windows SDK and Mac OS application development. A lot easier and a lot less expensive to base a program on pre-existing code platforms then to write new code. (Although, this has its LIMITS and does not apply to every type of application)

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 02:28 PM

Don is correct here, often times both sides will use it as a tool to develop so it's open to all users, using the same function set. Examples, Microsoft Windows SDK and Mac OS application development. A lot easier and a lot less expensive to base a program on pre-existing code platforms then to write new code. (Although, this has its LIMITS and does not apply to every type of application)

again, says who? examples?
SDK are designed for the 3rd party vendors. You don't think the vendor has additional resources they use? that they only use their own SDK for software?

And to add, Im talking about method, not about outcome quality.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 02:56 PM

again, says who? examples?
SDK are designed for the 3rd party vendors. You don't think the vendor has additional resources they use? that they only use their own SDK for software?

And to add, Im talking about method, not about outcome quality.

It is obvious that we cannot provide practical examples beyond hearsay as we don't have any concrete vendor inside info to substantiate the claim. What we are speaking on here is practicality. In large corporations that are divided by divisions, having a standardized platform to program, such as an SDK is necessary to streamline process. Often times it takes more resources to release a dumbed down version of the SDK, and it is not practical to to waste time/money on restricting users when the purpose of the SDK is open to 3rd party vendors to make software in order to popularize their platform.

In the case of Apple, because they are using a universal core platform to begin with, there isn't any kind of extra resource that they have from any other experienced unix programmer that would give them the edge on making a software piece, such as the aforementioned Logic Pro. Couple that with the fact that the Logic Studio programmers are an add on to the company, and not core operating system programmers, while all circumstantial claims, all fit together to illustrate the point that there is no "Special compatibility" or "extra stability" with Logic compared to other software pieces on the Mac OS platform, just because the programmers work for Apple.

Owen

01-15-2010, 03:02 PM

I don't know that I could ever go down this road... not for reason's of morality, but because at this stage in my experience, I get frustrated if I don't have some sort of large platter to push or pull tracks, or something to swing a track in when I'm cueing. I know you could nudge with buttons, but it isn't the same. Just a personal preference though. For that reason i'll always use timecoded cd's or vinyl

I'm not nudging though son, I know others do that, it definitely works. I'm just more comfortable ridding the pitch using the fader on the MIC channel that i've MIDI mapped to adjust the pitch of the focus deck and beatmatch into the other non TSP internal track that's spinning on CD or what not.

I also might consider getting a Behringer BCD2000. It has cute little platters for kixxx. Retail is less than $250.

http://bevi.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/behringer-bcd2000.jpg

Dave had a loan of one for a few weeks, used it for a few gigs, stellar little unit. I'm not sure his final verdict on it, but from the shows he did with it, it seemed to work the biznuzz.

It has a sound card and RCA out, so all you need is to connect it to the main club mixer and you're good to go.

alphagroove

01-15-2010, 03:05 PM

I'm not nudging though son, I know others do that, it definitely works. I'm just more comfortable ridding the pitch using the fader on the MIC channel that i've MIDI mapped to adjust the pitch of the focus deck and beatmatch into the other non TSP internal track that's spinning on CD or what not.

I also might consider getting a Behringer BCD2000. It has cute little platters for kixxx. Retail is less than $250.

http://bevi.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/behringer-bcd2000.jpg

Dave had a loan of one for a few weeks, used it for a few gigs, stellar little unit. I'm not sure his final verdict on it, but from the shows he did with it, it seemed to work the biznuzz.

It has a sound card and RCA out, so all you need is to connect it to the main club mixer and you're good to go.

I just bid on a BCD3000 today... :)

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 03:10 PM

loprogression

01-15-2010, 03:18 PM

Couple that with the fact that the Logic Studio programmers are an add on to the company, and not core operating system programmers, while all circumstantial claims, all fit together to illustrate the point that there is no "Special compatibility" or "extra stability" with Logic compared to other software pieces on the Mac OS platform, just because the programmers work for Apple.

I doubt that each development department is an island to each other. Its in Apple's interest to sell Logic, not Cubase. :p They have the upper hand by also developing the OS that their DAW will run on.

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 03:24 PM

I doubt that each development department is an island to each other. Its in Apple's interest to sell Logic, not Cubase. :p They have the upper hand by also developing the OS that their DAW will run on.

Your opinion is based on a consumer based view on a corporation and your assumptions on how it should work. Not on how infrastructure actually works in a large enterprise environment.

Owen

01-15-2010, 03:24 PM

Sirius Black

01-15-2010, 03:29 PM

You've mentioned your distaste for Behringer before. Other than companies like Acer, I tend to look at each product a manufacturer has as a separate entity.

You should try and update your opinion once in a while:)

Also.. that A&H unit is 3x the cost, I seriously doubt it's 3x the build quality, reliability and feature set.

I had a automated control surface by behringer...it wasn't bad, but it didn't break down, i didn't love it either though. I've owned several behringer mixers and all of them were trash. So much line noise and the pre's sucked ass.

loprogression

01-15-2010, 03:33 PM

behringer midi controllers aren't bad. its not processing an audio signal, let's leave it at that. :p if it were i'd say noooooooooooooooooo gooooooooooooooooooooo. behinger mixers are le poop.

Owen

01-15-2010, 03:42 PM

I'm gonna check with dave for the verdict on his experience with the BCD2K, then I might snag one, that or the Audio 2. Either way I'm not keen on totting around my Ecler mixer to every gig for much longahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

LSDave

01-15-2010, 05:05 PM

The only thing i have to say is that i question the long term reliability of behringer products, however I do like their midi controller series. I'd rather get the Allen & Heath myself though ...

http://www.allen-heath.co.uk/AHImages/XoneDX_Top.jpg

these guys want something easily portable. the DX is NOT that. its large in size. and for the price. i could buy 5 BCD3000's. so reliability, im sure the behringer woud still come out cheaper in the end.

My final verdict is that i will be adding one to my setup soon. For the money, you cant beat it. Such a clean little setup, and very functional. And with the newer versions of traktor having better midi out functions, it make really good use of the controllers LED's. Of course its not going to be the quality of a A&H, but it did well in the few gigs that i used it. And no one new the wiser. Its the end result that matters.

my review of the unit is here http://www.lsdave.com/?cat=4

Owen

01-15-2010, 05:17 PM

The great Dave has spoken :)

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2007/07/GiantDog_450x556.jpg

Where can I source a BDC2000 locally? At yo shop?

LSDave

01-15-2010, 05:47 PM

The great Dave has spoken :)

Where can I source a BDC2000 locally? At yo shop?
BCD THREE thousand from L&M

brian oblivion

01-16-2010, 11:44 AM

Don't get any upgrades. They will delay your computer by a month or more. And they are overpriced. It's super easy to upgrade the hard drive yourself, and this way you guarantee the quality of the hard drive put in there (the first thing to fail in most computers)

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macbook_pro/macbook-pro-unibody-faq/macbook-pro-13-15-17-mid-2009-how-to-upgrade-hard-drive-ssd.html

There is an article on upgrading the hard drive.

With that it will be more than sufficient to run logic and traktor. I advise you to install any sound libraries for 3rd party programs to be stored on an exterior hard drive. It will help performance when all the read/write/record/audio processing isn't done all on one hard drive.

thanks for the link. It does seem very easy. I was looking at the specs of macbook vs macbook pro and there doesnt seem to be much difference other then a backlit keyboard, sd card reader and firewire port which costs $200 more if I go with the entry MBP 13". It almost makes more sense getting the macbook and I read that you can get it in a aluminum case as well

brian oblivion

01-16-2010, 11:57 AM

Ya, don't let L&M upgrade you or it'll be springtime by the time you get your shit. Super easy to do the RAM and HD yourself.

Im going to get it through UofM and may get a macbook instead of the MBP 13" 2.53 as I initally intended

But when it comes to music production Logic is way better than Cubase, Sonar, FL Studio and Reason (obviously). Its Mac only software so you have no choice. But more importantly, you are running DAW software built by the same people that build the operating system and machines. I never experience crashes in Logic that aren't related to 3rd party synths. Ever.

I agree Logic is much superior to cubase, reason, sonar etc. I am currently using logic pro 5.1 and have been for years. I am really looking forward to the upgrade!!!

Sirius Black

01-16-2010, 05:17 PM

brian oblivion

01-17-2010, 12:20 PM

Don't cheap out. Make sure you get the pro because you'll need the firewire connection for your sound card. You usb sound is slower and firewire and usb borrows processing from your cpu while firewire has dedicated processing. Not to mention it frees up a usb slot for other devices.

After re-evaluating everything it doesnt make sense to me to have a kick ass laptop which could get ruined or stolen at a club or rave (the worst part about that would be that someone(if stolen) would have all my unfinished material). So if I get a macbook(1000) instead of the MBP(1500), I would have a laptop dedicated for djing and a imac at home for producing. And it works out to be only a couple hundred more and peace of mind that my material, which is most important to me, would be safe.

Sirius Black

01-17-2010, 01:57 PM

After re-evaluating everything it doesnt make sense to me to have a kick ass laptop which could get ruined or stolen at a club or rave (the worst part about that would be that someone(if stolen) would have all my unfinished material). So if I get a macbook(1000) instead of the MBP(1500), I would have a laptop dedicated for djing and a imac at home for producing. And it works out to be only a couple hundred more and peace of mind that my material, which is most important to me, would be safe.

If investing less money is a concern for you then buy a pc laptop for performance/dj'ing, and produce on a mac at home. It's not like you are going to be using logic in live performance, since it doesn't lend itself to that, ableton and traktor will be your tools there, which are cross platform. In addition, you can take advantage of both worlds software wise too :)

alphagroove

01-18-2010, 07:47 AM

Your opinion is based on a consumer based view on a corporation and your assumptions on how it should work. Not on how infrastructure actually works in a large enterprise environment.

how do you know?

Sirius Black

01-18-2010, 07:55 AM

how do you know?

Your statements speak volumes about your experience.

brian oblivion

01-19-2010, 08:44 PM

ok moving back on topic. Im not looking at spending 5-700 on a soundcard

what do you guys think of Presonus FireStudio Mobile or suggestions for something in that price range ($3-400)

LSDave

01-19-2010, 09:00 PM

ok moving back on topic. Im not looking at spending 5-700 on a soundcard

what do you guys think of Presonus FireStudio Mobile or suggestions for something in that price range ($3-400)

if you get traktor pro you get a pretty sweet 8in/8out USB audio interface with midi right on it. definitely good enough for producing.

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 07:44 AM

ok moving back on topic. Im not looking at spending 5-700 on a soundcard

what do you guys think of Presonus FireStudio Mobile or suggestions for something in that price range ($3-400)

Pre-Sonus is decent, but for a mac, i would HIGHLY recommend getting a MOTU sound card, the Ultralite being one of the better options.

http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3/

alphagroove

01-20-2010, 08:21 AM

Your statements speak volumes about your experience.

Only because I work with developers on a pretty much daily basis.. not just internally, but directly with microsoft, orion, SUN...

what about you?

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 08:29 AM

Only because I work with developers on a pretty much daily basis.. not just internally, but directly with microsoft, orion, SUN...

what about you?

I work with technicians, network engineers, hardware technicians, printer technicians, people who write technet blogs for microsoft...

Our company has it's hands in just about everything IT related.

alphagroove

01-20-2010, 08:35 AM

if you get traktor pro you get a pretty sweet 8in/8out USB audio interface with midi right on it. definitely good enough for producing.

this is the audio 8 DJ interface right?

alphagroove

01-20-2010, 08:38 AM

I work with technicians, network engineers, hardware technicians, printer technicians, people who write technet blogs for microsoft...

Our company has it's hands in just about everything IT related.

exactly. i deal with this stuff first hand, I'm not tech support. I work with developers on the entire life cycle on applications we use.

LSDave

01-20-2010, 09:09 AM

this is the audio 8 DJ interface right?

yup

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 09:15 AM

exactly. i deal with this stuff first hand, I'm not tech support. I work with developers on the entire life cycle on applications we use.

There are developers in this company too. We don't do just technical support hehe...

One of my main tools for ordering, billing, and invoicing is written and updated in house.

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 09:16 AM

yup

I like it, I use it as my sound card, although I would still recommend something with better converters. The D/A converters on the sound card suck ass!

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 10:40 AM

As a side note to buying a new mac, buyer beware :

http://gizmodo.com/5452083/the-faulty-imac-saga-chapter-2-even-steve-jobs-cant-fix-em

LSDave

01-20-2010, 12:58 PM

I like it, I use it as my sound card, although I would still recommend something with better converters. The D/A converters on the sound card suck ass!

a lot of "high end" audio cards you have spoken of in the past use cirrus logic dacs. im not sure what model of dacs tho.

And what exactly makes those dacs suck??? just out of curiosity, im wondering if you will try to prove your an expert on something else as well.

Donald, i think im going to start deleting your posts that make such rash statments unless they site fact that backs them up.

loprogression

01-20-2010, 01:12 PM

u should put all his unsubstantiated claims in pink comic sans serif like this instead! :p lol

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 01:26 PM

a lot of "high end" audio cards you have spoken of in the past use cirrus logic dacs. im not sure what model of dacs tho.

This statement serves no purpose based on the information you have provided. Motorola and Texas Instruments make most of the DSP chips for Analogue Modeled Subtractive Synths. And yet, strangely, they don't all produce the same sound. Similar, but not the same. Most computers have an AMD or Intel processor in it (with the exception of older apples and some netbooks with VIA or nVidia processors) but somehow, interestingly enough, there is a varying capacity to which each computer can perform similar tasks.

Funny how that works?

And what exactly makes those dacs suck??? just out of curiosity, im wondering if you will try to prove your an expert on something else as well.

I'm just stating based on personal experience. I've used MOTU soundcards, Presonus, M-Audio, Native Instruments, Mackie and Focusrite. I have found by and large that the Native Instruments and the M-Audio had the lesser sound quality of the bunch. This is not something that can be measured or substantiated because this experience is based on speakers used, environment, hearing and all other components connected as they can all affect the grounding, line noise and overall sound quality.

To add to that, manufacturers don't openly publish their chipset manufacturers either so this "concrete proof" you request is not easily proven. All I know is what my ears tell me.

Donald, i think im going to start deleting your posts that make such rash statments unless they site fact that backs them up.

Yourself and Randal may like to undermine my knowledge at every opportunity, simply because I am overly critical of things, and that is definitely your choice to do so. But I don't feel it would be necessary to censor me unless you have concrete proof that I am consistently wrong. Without that information, you just make yourselves out to be a hypocrites.

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 01:27 PM

u should put all his unsubstantiated claims in pink comic sans serif like this instead! :p lol

I find it interesting that everyone else is allowed to like or dislike something based on their personal experiences, but somehow, I am not.

loprogression

01-20-2010, 01:34 PM

I find it interesting that everyone else is allowed to like or dislike something based on their personal experiences, but somehow, I am not.

Things presented as personal opinion should be stated like, "I think this thing is a piece of shit" vs. "this thing is a piece of shit". Using the latter requires some sort of qualification, like articles online discussing how something is crap. Anecdotal references and personal experience aren't really worth that much (you said yourself earlier (http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=108754&postcount=23)"Just because you've never had a problem does not mean this is canon for the experience of a product.") In the case of that iMac yellow screen article, you could get away with saying "this thing is a piece of shit" because you referenced something to back it that shows that its not just an isolated incident or one person's experience.

alphagroove

01-20-2010, 01:44 PM

things presented as personal opinion should be stated like, "i think this thing is a piece of shit" vs. "this thing is a piece of shit". Using the latter requires some sort of qualification, like articles online discussing how something is crap. Anecdotal references and personal experience aren't really worth that much (you said yourself earlier (http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=108754&postcount=23)"just because you've never had a problem does not mean this is canon for the experience of a product.") in the case of that imac yellow screen article, you could get away with saying "this thing is a piece of shit" because you referenced something to back it that shows that its not just an isolated incident or one person's experience.

qft

Sirius Black

01-20-2010, 01:56 PM

Things presented as personal opinion should be stated like, "I think this thing is a piece of shit" vs. "this thing is a piece of shit". Using the latter requires some sort of qualification, like articles online discussing how something is crap. Anecdotal references and personal experience aren't really worth that much (you said yourself earlier (http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=108754&postcount=23)"Just because you've never had a problem does not mean this is canon for the experience of a product.") In the case of that iMac yellow screen article, you could get away with saying "this thing is a piece of shit" because you referenced something to back it that shows that its not just an isolated incident or one person's experience.

Well, one thing I can say about my current Audio 8 DJ, is that intermittently I will get static feedback on all channels when I open a sound. This may occur when I play a new video, or open a new mp3 in Winamp. It doesn't seem to matter which application I choose. When this occurs, it requires me to power cycle the device, and close any open programs that utilize the sound driver. This issue has been happening since I installed it in a 64bit environment and may be isolated to the 64bit drivers, I have not investigated if others are experiencing this issue as well.

LSDave

01-20-2010, 04:53 PM

I find it interesting that everyone else is allowed to like or dislike something based on their personal experiences, but somehow, I am not.

you specifically said the dacs suck, and you havent been able to back up why the dacs suck, instead you generalized that the whole device isnt up to par with other devices. You didnt take in to account that is very probably that other parts of the device are to blame. you basically contradicted yourself.
i bet you dont even know which model of cirrus logic dacs are in the device. that being said, you have no means to really substantiate any claims. Show me an electrical engineering degree, and then ill start to take what you have to say as something to actually listen to.

Just because something says it has a burr-brown DAC, it doesnt say which one. Im pretty sure that company alone has over 20 different models of DAC's.

You make factual statments all the time based on your feelings.

thats all don.

LSDave

01-20-2010, 04:58 PM

Just to note, Cirrus Logic currently has about 26 models of Audio D/A convertors on their site.

Owen

01-20-2010, 05:36 PM

you specifically said the dacs suck, and you havent been able to back up why the dacs suck, instead you generalized that the whole device isnt up to par with other devices. You didnt take in to account that is very probably that other parts of the device are to blame. you basically contradicted yourself.
i bet you dont even know which model of cirrus logic dacs are in the device. that being said, you have no means to really substantiate any claims. Show me an electrical engineering degree, and then ill start to take what you have to say as something to actually listen to.

Just because something says it has a burr-brown DAC, it doesnt say which one. Im pretty sure that company alone has over 20 different models of DAC's.

You make factual statments all the time based on your feelings.

thats all don.

QFT & FTW

I'll add this...

Don you're a smart cat, passionate about music and it's associated technology. In person you're a stand-up dude. It's only in these threads i've been reading for the past year , with you vs Chris, Khem, Dave, Randal, JR, etc, etc, that another side of you comes out.

That being, you extrapolate far TOO much and RARELY concede any counter points. Even when outnumbered 8 to 1. Though your defense is often admirable.

Take for example your posts about computers. It's obvious to me that your experience in IT comes from your (recent?) job @ Epic. You just can't take your experience there and extrapolate it to explain the reliability (or lack-of) for major brands like toshiba, dell, lenovo, sony etc. That's the same as me saying that lenovo laptops are unreliable because I see a lot failures with their Thinkpads @ my work.

Sometimes when you're in a discussion and you're faced with a REALLY good counter-point , you just need to sit back in your chair, and type ANY of the following on the keyboard..

'Perhaps I was wrong '
'Ah yes, I see now'
'Ok..'
'Thanks!'
'Good point'

I do it all the time, it stings a bit @ first, but you get used to it with time :D

A good discussion isn't just about being ONE PERSON BEING RIGHT all the time. You've got a lot share about many topics, and that's great, but I think we'd all get a lot more out of yo postz if weren't always belaboring your points.

Ya digg?

brian oblivion

01-20-2010, 08:33 PM

As a side note to buying a new mac, buyer beware :

http://gizmodo.com/5452083/the-faulty-imac-saga-chapter-2-even-steve-jobs-cant-fix-em

Thanks for the link. Maybe Ill hold off on getting that iMac for a bit

That soundcard you suggested is way more then I want to spend, especially if i can do everything i need with the audio 8

beta

01-20-2010, 08:38 PM

Well there is a bit of truth in those statements.

DACs do suck if you're comparing it to your ear, if you graph is frequency vs. time you're never going to be able to get every bit of audio. But looking at it that way is outrageous.

Sirius Black

01-21-2010, 07:30 AM

Take for example your posts about computers. It's obvious to me that your experience in IT comes from your (recent?) job @ Epic.

This is an incorrect statement. I've been working with computers my entire life. And professionally since I was 14 (working with Winnipeg School Division #1 as a Junior Tech). I have a lifetime of experience with computers, in usage, repair, construction and maintenance. My recent experience with my newish job has added enterprise level IT experience to the mix.

Sometimes when you're in a discussion and you're faced with a REALLY good counter-point , you just need to sit back in your chair, and type ANY of the following on the keyboard..

'Perhaps I was wrong '
'Ah yes, I see now'
'Ok..'
'Thanks!'
'Good point'

My issue is that most of the people who discuss on this board fail to provide concrete proof to back up their statement. Now I know I sound hypocritical by requiring in when I don't provide it but I view it this way. I make a statement, or share an opinion. Someone says I'm wrong. The burden of proof is then is on them to prove me wrong. If they cannot provide sensible evidence to counter my point, I don't view it as a valid argument. In that case those discussions turn into a war of attrition where it's basically who is capable of making the stronger speculative argument.

A good example of this is LSDave and Alphagroove in this very thread. They both stated that they viewed my statement as assumptive, generalized, and baseless, and yet provide no evidence to substantiate their claims. With Alphagroove, it's basically his word vs mine on who is more knowledgeable about the likely inner workings of the programming life-cycle in enterprise environments. Both of our arguements are speculative in nature, but due to previous bias, he felt strongly that my argument is false. The truth is neither of us know for sure.

In the case of LSDave, first he stated that Cirrus Logic was the maker of most DAC's. Which may or may not be true, as there is no real way to verify this claim through accessible means (see my statement where most vendors don't publish what chipsets they use for their converters) He then contradicted himself by stating that they make about 20 different models. In a world where the brand of transistor can deeply affect timbre, this can make a huge difference. Couple that with other circuitry involved in making an audio interface in it becomes very clear that there can be large differences in quality between brand and brand. My argument was only circumstantial as all I was saying was based on my experience with the drivers and the sound quality, it isn't bad but isn't great. Considering I've been using the product since Traktor Scratch came out, I would say that my experience with it outweighs anyone else who commented on it. It may only be based on singular experience and circumstantial, but there is no solid evidence to prove otherwise either.

A good discussion isn't just about being ONE PERSON BEING RIGHT all the time. You've got a lot share about many topics, and that's great, but I think we'd all get a lot more out of yo postz if weren't always belaboring your points.

Ya digg?

Oh I agree 100%. Problem with most people is that they are not used to being challenged, and when they do, they allow their emotions to affect the argument they make, and as a result do not best translate their counter points in a clear, conclusive manner. This is very important in internet discussions as so much of the communication is lost in translation.

alphagroove

01-21-2010, 08:46 AM

http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=108722&postcount=7

Sirius Black

01-21-2010, 08:58 AM

http://www.mixhard.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=108722&postcount=7

2 things I would like to say.

1. If you will notice, once proven wrong with concrete evidence, I did not argue any longer. Just because I was wrong once, doesn't mean I'm wrong every time. Posting this doesn't change anything.

2. Way to skirt around the issue and not really address any of the points I outlined my post. This only serves to further prove my point.

alphagroove

01-21-2010, 09:23 AM

This is an incorrect statement. I've been working with computers my entire life. And professionally since I was 14 (working with Winnipeg School Division #1 as a Junior Tech). I have a lifetime of experience with computers, in usage, repair, construction and maintenance. My recent experience with my newish job has added enterprise level IT experience to the mix.
So where is YOUR experience or knowledge with development?

My issue is that most of the people who discuss on this board fail to provide concrete proof to back up their statement. Now I know I sound hypocritical by requiring in when I don't provide it but I view it this way. I make a statement, or share an opinion. Someone says I'm wrong. The burden of proof is then is on them to prove me wrong. If they cannot provide sensible evidence to counter my point, I don't view it as a valid argument. In that case those discussions turn into a war of attrition where it's basically who is capable of making the stronger speculative argument.

This is where you're wrong. When you throw out wild statements (not opinions) then it is still YOUR job to back your shit up.
If you would stop making all these bold statements and just ease up and state your opinion instead this kind of stuff wouldn't come up.
Here's a basic example that you will probably take out of context:
In scrabble if YOU put a word down, and if another player doesn't believe it's a word, then it's YOUR responsibility to look it up.

A good example of this is LSDave and Alphagroove in this very thread. They both stated that they viewed my statement as assumptive, generalized, and baseless, and yet provide no evidence to substantiate their claims. With Alphagroove, it's basically his word vs mine on who is more knowledgeable about the likely inner workings of the programming life-cycle in enterprise environments. Both of our arguements are speculative in nature, but due to previous bias, he felt strongly that my argument is false. The truth is neither of us know for sure.

I know. Like I mentioned, I work with developers on an on-going, nearly daily basis. I audit and perform security checks on their code and applications (looking for buffer overflows, cross-site scripting and sql injections, etc). I meet with our SUN developer weekly for 2 hours. I am a part of the inner workings of the programming life-cycle, and I'm a part of it in all of its stages in an enterprise environment. I have been for years.
I know that the developers I know don't restrict themselves to the SDK packages that their respective vendor created for 3rd party resources. That the SDK packages are limited to certain aspects of code based on copyright and licensing restrictions.

I'm sure the company you work for has or deals with developers, every company does pretty much. But where is YOUR experience with this?

Oh I agree 100%. Problem with most people is that they are not used to being challenged, and when they do, they allow their emotions to affect the argument they make, and as a result do not best translate their counter points in a clear, conclusive manner. This is very important in internet discussions as so much of the communication is lost in translation.

Please take re-read your last statement a few times and put it to use.

loprogression

01-21-2010, 09:48 AM

Now I know I sound hypocritical by requiring in when I don't provide it but I view it this way. I make a statement, or share an opinion. Someone says I'm wrong. The burden of proof is then is on them to prove me wrong. If they cannot provide sensible evidence to counter my point, I don't view it as a valid argument.

Nooooooo dude. That's not how it works at all. When you present a statement you have the burden of proof of backing up that statement. People don't get to say anything they want and then have the burden of proof being on those who make the counter-claim. That's kinda dogmatic.

Let's say I claim that there is human life on Mars, unicorns, or God. The burden of proof is on me to support that claim. Not the people who disagree with that claim. Digging up evidence in support of something not existing, whether its martians or faults of a DAC, is a lot more difficult than digging up evidence in support of something. That's why it works the way it does.

Taking the unicorns for example, if the burden of proof was on me to say they existed, it would be assumed they do not unless I supplied evidence in support. Because I can't do that, it would be assumed they do not. However, if I made the claim and the burden of proof was on the opposition, such as you believe it should work, then the opposition would somehow have to show evidence they do not exist. The problem with that is that you can simply say, 'there's no evidence of unicorns anywhere', but then I could counter with the fact that there is no possible way that every nook and cranny of the entire universe has been searched for unicorns, they could just exist in a place not yet searched, and therefore I'd be the winner in claiming that unicorns exist. Dun work like that dawg.

Owen

01-21-2010, 09:58 AM

Some irony is Don's continued defense. Expected of course :D

Sirius Black

01-21-2010, 09:59 AM

I know. Like I mentioned, I work with developers on an on-going, nearly daily basis. I audit and perform security checks on their code and applications (looking for buffer overflows, cross-site scripting and sql injections, etc). I meet with our SUN developer weekly for 2 hours. I am a part of the inner workings of the programming life-cycle, and I'm a part of it in all of its stages in an enterprise environment. I have been for years.
I know that the developers I know don't restrict themselves to the SDK packages that their respective vendor created for 3rd party resources. That the SDK packages are limited to certain aspects of code based on copyright and licensing restrictions.
I'm sure the company you work for has or deals with developers, every company does pretty much. But where is YOUR experience with this?

Your argument about my direct involvement with programming is sound. My involvement is more with the sale of said programs than it is the development. That said, different companies have different policies. Furthermore these policies differ on business size. Is your company at a scale that you would say it's scope would match that of an enterprise at the level of Apple? And that the procedure of your company would match that of a corporation of that size? If not while you do have a great deal more experience than me, it may not be applicable.

There could be policy differences as the argument started based on how Apple would treat development kits, especially at the operating system level. Since programs for the Macintosh Operating System use a standard set of tools for programming, much in the same way programming languages are used to make programs for Windows, I don't see what advantage a set of programmers who were adopted from a 3rd party company that was purchased would have over another company coding for the same operating system.

For example, if Microsoft buys a company, like let's say for arguments sake, Cakewalk. If programmers need to use C++ (as an example) to make a program, and Steinberg is using C++ to make a program, what advantage do these new Microsoft employees really have in making a program for Windows over the programmers at Steinberg?

If it's not the case and they are not using the same set of tools, what proof do you have that it is like this. Please provide real world examples from your job that illustrate this point.

Sirius Black

01-21-2010, 10:03 AM

Nooooooo dude. That's not how it works at all. When you present a statement you have the burden of proof of backing up that statement. People don't get to say anything they want and then have the burden of proof being on those who make the counter-claim. That's kinda dogmatic.

Let's say I claim that there is human life on Mars, unicorns, or God. The burden of proof is on me to support that claim. Not the people who disagree with that claim. Digging up evidence in support of something not existing, whether its martians or faults of a DAC, is a lot more difficult than digging up evidence in support of something. That's why it works the way it does.

Taking the unicorns for example, if the burden of proof was on me to say they existed, it would be assumed they do not unless I supplied evidence in support. Because I can't do that, it would be assumed they do not. However, if I made the claim and the burden of proof was on the opposition, such as you believe it should work, then the opposition would somehow have to show evidence they do not exist. The problem with that is that you can simply say, 'there's no evidence of unicorns anywhere', but then I could counter with the fact that there is no possible way that every nook and cranny of the entire universe has been searched for unicorns, they could just exist in a place not yet searched, and therefore I'd be the winner in claiming that unicorns exist. Dun work like that dawg.

Ok, let me ask you this. To make your example a bit more applicable let's phrase it this way. Let's say I tell you Unicorns exist. You tell me no they don't I don't believe you. I tell you, well I rode one, It had this kind of hair, it's horn was made of this material, it was this shape and these are it's exact measurements. I'm sorry but I didn't get a chance to get a photograph, however.

Now while you won't totally believe me, If I have enough circumstantial evidence to prove I'm not totally lying, or at least might be partially telling the truth, wouldn't it require a stronger case from the other person to completely disprove me? Otherwise aren't we at a standstill?

loprogression

01-21-2010, 10:41 AM

Ok, let me ask you this. To make your example a bit more applicable let's phrase it this way. Let's say I tell you Unicorns exist. You tell me no they don't I don't believe you. I tell you, well I rode one, It had this kind of hair, it's horn was made of this material, it was this shape and these are it's exact measurements. I'm sorry but I didn't get a chance to get a photograph, however.

Now while you won't totally believe me, If I have enough circumstantial evidence to prove I'm not totally lying, or at least might be partially telling the truth, wouldn't it require a stronger case from the other person to completely disprove me? Otherwise aren't we at a standstill?

Not in the least. That's anecdotal 'evidence' and really amounts to nothing. This is the same tactic religious people, UFO believers, junk science proponents, etc all use. I speak to Jesus, therefore he's real. Jesus is in your heart, and can't be seen, but since we all feel him he must be real. My family member's cancer was cured by homeopathy. I was abducted by aliens, I even have an incision scar to prove it.

That's also not really considered circumstantial evidence either. That's moar liek a person account of events. If God came into your bedroom and told you that you'd be in a horrific car accident the next day, and you could recite every detail about the incident and what he said, and the next day you survived a car wreck, that doesn't make your statements on the incident any more valid.

Personal accounts, without valid evidence to back it, are completely meaningless.

However, you are perfectly within your right to throw an 'I think' or 'I feel' in front of your statements to make it look like an opinion rather than a statement of fact. Such as, 'I feel unicorns are real because my delusions tell me so' or 'I believe in god because I feel like he's actually in my heart' or 'I believe homeopathy is legit because I'm an idiot'

alphagroove

01-21-2010, 10:55 AM

hey, what about my other points?!?! "way to skit around the issue" as they say

Your argument about my direct involvement with programming is sound. My involvement is more with the sale of said programs than it is the development. That said, different companies have different policies. Furthermore these policies differ on business size. Is your company at a scale that you would say it's scope would match that of an enterprise at the level of Apple? And that the procedure of your company would match that of a corporation of that size? If not while you do have a great deal more experience than me, it may not be applicable.

There could be policy differences as the argument started based on how Apple would treat development kits, especially at the operating system level. Since programs for the Macintosh Operating System use a standard set of tools for programming, much in the same way programming languages are used to make programs for Windows, I don't see what advantage a set of programmers who were adopted from a 3rd party company that was purchased would have over another company coding for the same operating system.
oh, come on Donald.
How do you know this? You said yourself that you don't have experience in this, how do you have this knowledge?

For example, if Microsoft buys a company, like let's say for arguments sake, Cakewalk. If programmers need to use C++ (as an example) to make a program, and Steinberg is using C++ to make a program, what advantage do these new Microsoft employees really have in making a program for Windows over the programmers at Steinberg?

What does this example have to do with anything we were discussing?
But to entertain you, being on board with MS would allow the programmers access to things like sub-routines, and code snippets that are copyrighted to MS. This could allow them to make their program run smoother on the OS, faster, make better use of memory and allow it to use features of the OS as part of it. Does this always happen? Of course not.
But theres no way you can say a developer at MS does NOT have an advantage then a 3rd party developer in making software for MS operating system.

If it's not the case and they are not using the same set of tools, what proof do you have that it is like this. Please provide real world examples from your job that illustrate this point.

I gave you an example. I've talked with developers from both SUN and Microsoft personally.
Here's an example: When *i*, myself am developing code, *i* do not have access to the all of the tools that Microsoft or SUN has. This is because they have proprietary tools they do not release with the SDK for copyright and licensing reasons. I already mentioned the latter in my previous post.

alphagroove

01-21-2010, 10:57 AM

However, you are perfectly within your right to throw an 'I think' or 'I feel' in front of your statements to make it look like an opinion rather than a statement of fact. Such as, 'I feel unicorns are real because my delusions tell me so' or 'I believe in god because I feel like he's actually in my heart' or 'I believe homeopathy is legit because I'm an idiot'

qft

Sirius Black

01-21-2010, 11:10 AM

Not in the least. That's anecdotal 'evidence' and really amounts to nothing. This is the same tactic religious people, UFO believers, junk science proponents, etc all use. I speak to Jesus, therefore he's real. Jesus is in your heart, and can't be seen, but since we all feel him he must be real. My family member's cancer was cured by homeopathy. I was abducted by aliens, I even have an incision scar to prove it.

That's also not really considered circumstantial evidence either. That's moar liek a person account of events. If God came into your bedroom and told you that you'd be in a horrific car accident the next day, and you could recite every detail about the incident and what he said, and the next day you survived a car wreck, that doesn't make your statements on the incident any more valid.

Personal accounts, without valid evidence to back it, are completely meaningless.

However, you are perfectly within your right to throw an 'I think' or 'I feel' in front of your statements to make it look like an opinion rather than a statement of fact. Such as, 'I feel unicorns are real because my delusions tell me so' or 'I believe in god because I feel like he's actually in my heart' or 'I believe homeopathy is legit because I'm an idiot'

My next question is this. Where do you draw the line between anecdotal and concrete evidence. For example, Randal's argument below is very compelling, and provides logical reasoning. However there is no proof. There is no documented evidence which supports his claim. TBH he couldn't even provide any evidence legally either I would imagine. Does this make his argument invalid? (not saying it isn't just using it as an example)

My argument about my sound card could be substantiated to anyone who's been in my studio long enough to see me have to reset the sound card 3 of 4 times in a session because i get static on the main channels for all audio output. In fact I could invite someone over and sit with them for a few hours and the issue would pop up for sure. Does that mean me saying that will make people believe me any more?

Where do we draw the line?

LSDave

01-21-2010, 03:49 PM

In the case of LSDave, first he stated that Cirrus Logic was the maker of most DAC's. Which may or may not be true, as there is no real way to verify this claim through accessible means (see my statement where most vendors don't publish what chipsets they use for their converters) He then contradicted himself by stating that they make about 20 different models. In a world where the brand of transistor can deeply affect timbre, this can make a huge difference. Couple that with other circuitry involved in making an audio interface in it becomes very clear that there can be large differences in quality between brand and brand.

I never said MOST DACs, i said cirrus logic is used in some of the brands you have mentioned as good options. So i never contradicted myself. You also talk about transistors as if you are an electrical engineer. Your statement is pure buzz words.

I will continue this conversation in person.